Note: This is written mostly in response to comments from my last post...I just had too much to say to leave it all in the comments.
We all know how to identify overt sexism. When someone tells you "a woman's place is in the home," that's sexist. When the president of Harvard says that girls are just not as good at science as boys are, that's sexist (and hopefully career-ending, but that's another story). Being expected to make less money, have a baby, do the dishes, and give a blow job, then be happy with your lot in life, all due to your assigned gender, is sexist.
None of that is what I was talking about in my last post. I am not sick of men due to their overt sexism. I don't spend a hell of a lot of time with overly sexist men, at least not when I'm not around my family. But covert sexism, and even what I would call covert misogyny, is rampant in nearly ALL of the men I know, all of the men I've ever known. You don't want to see it, because they are such nice guys, you like them (sometimes you even love them), but you scratch the surface and its there. And that's the part that is exhausting to me. They have so much potential, and most of the time, they are great. Then you let your guard down and someone says something that gives you pause. You shake it off, telling yourself you are being "too sensitive." But then you wake up in the middle of the night and think about it, and goddamn it, you were right, that was a sexist or misogynist thing to say, and goddamn it, it doesn't matter if he thinks he was kidding, because this joke isn't funny anymore. Not when you have to listen to some variation on it everywhere you go, every day, for your whole life. Not when it is expected to define you.
It is difficult to give examples of covert sexism and misogyny, because when looked at singularly, they often seem trite, especially to people who don't want to look for sexism in their friends, family, or colleagues. When I try to give examples here, it is more than likely that comments will come back saying "that's no big deal" or "that doesn't bother me." And so the blame will be turned around on me, for overreacting, for being man-hating, for being too sensitive or overthinking. It's a trap, and I see it before I even walk into it.
That being said, my days are full of examples, and I'll give some.
- I have asked Mark to stop using "bitch" and "pussy" as insults at least twenty times. Sometimes, to humor me, he even tries to stop using the words. But it never lasts. They are part of his lexicon, and until he sees actual worth in taking them out of his vocabulary on his own, it's not going to happen.
- I share an office with one woman and one man. The man, who I honestly love to death most of the time, finds it perfectly appropriate to discuss strip clubs and to email around pictures of obese women for laughs (this is slightly beside the point, but he's obese himself). And sure, I can (and have) asked him not to do those things, at least not in my presence, and like Mark, he remembers for awhile, then it slips his mind, because he is just doing it to humor me anyway, he doesn't get why it's such a big deal. The same man also finds it appropriate to assume any grouchiness on the part of myself or my female officemate has to be PMS-related.
- On my "work team," there are five women and ten men. Of the men, five of them have wives who do not work outside the home (three have working wives and two are single). From these men, I have heard long explanations about why it is better for a wife to stay home. They are never saying that all women belong in the home, though. Oh, no, that would be sexist! Their cases are always the exception. 'My wife is subservient because she wants to be. She's really in charge, she just lets me pretend to be in charge to keep the peace. My wife likes to keep house. It's OK that she does all the housework and cooking and my laundry--I pay the bills!' And on and on. (Just as a sidenote, two of the five have small children at home, and those situations are somewhat different.)
- Length of time I have worked here: 6 months. Number of discussions I've been in regarding why women MUST shave their legs and pits: no less than 5
- Quickest way to get nice-but-sometimes-irritating coworker to leave my office? Say menstruation.
- Favorite word to describe nasty female manager? Cunt.
But I'm not going to. For the same reason that no amount of hatred for the U.S. government is going to get me to expatriate. This country, office, house, whatever belongs to me just as much as it does to them, and I am not going to let them push me out. Because I am not leaving, it would be easier, probably, to ignore than thousand small things a day that get under my skin, to save my battles for rapists and abusers, or at least for men who intentionally say nasty things. But I'm not going to do that either, because that is how we got here. Every time a woman says "well, I may not have actual equality, but it's better than it was before, and it's good enough," we don't just not move forward, we move a tiny step back. It we actually want to be equal human beings, then all sexism, no matter how trite it seems, is unexcusable.
Comments (17)
I'm a guy, and all of those examples are things that would bother me as well. I think it's not just a matter of sexism, it's a matter of civility and being nice to each other.
Posted by Ben Combee | February 24, 2005 5:16 PM
Wow, I would call those pretty egregious examples of sexism, but then that's splitting hairs. You're so right, about more covert sexism being everywhere and about it being exhausting. I'd say the covert sexism, the little examples revealing just how devalued women still are, is almost more dangerous, precisely because it's seemingly benign. I'm glad I read that, because I think I've stopped being so vigilant. Almost stopped caring. I know so many frustrating people.
Posted by Ms. Polkadot | February 24, 2005 6:26 PM
Well said!
and SHIT, its NOT a "matter of civility"!! Civility is one thing. Perpetuating years of oppression is a whole other thing, and a worse thing. To say its a matter of civility is rather offensive IMO.
Ok. Done ranting. Nice post Grace.
Posted by Jess | February 24, 2005 11:19 PM
Great post! You really sum it all up - I so get you on other people doing things to humor me for a while before getting right back to life as usual - my SO does this and I hate it! He's so wonderful so I just want him to get it, you know?
Posted by beapea | February 25, 2005 9:30 AM
WRT "pussy," whenever some man uses it as an insult, I look at him (or at someone else nearby) and ask pseudo-sweetly, "How come it's an insult until they want some?"
And, I agree, these guys are more than a little forgetful.
Posted by Emma Goldman | February 25, 2005 10:57 AM
Thanks for posting what you did, Grace, instead of just letting it lie.
I work in an environment similar to yours. More annoying than men's constant sexism, to me, are other women's pressuring me to let it slide. And I see it over and over again, lately.
Women - usually younger women - scornfully tell me that they don't know what I'm talking about, that I'm being too sensitive, or that *they* have no problems with the men *they* know.
What I hear them saying, underneath it all, is "Shut up. I'm doing okay right now, so I don't need change. Quit complaining or they'll punish us all."
Posted by Gwen | February 25, 2005 2:11 PM
i think the majority of those examples are OVERT examples of sexism. although yes, you are right, i think the bitch/pussy/cunt/gay/"you guys" thing is no big deal. and obviously neither do strip clubs.
i think you are right though, that these people are humoring you. unless you make it something they care about (and not something they do because you care about it) it's not gonna change.
Posted by triumphantly, jenny | February 26, 2005 1:17 AM
But why the hell should it be my job to make basic respect for women as fellow human beings something they care about? Why the fuck should I have to teach that?
And Gwen, this is brilliant and right on:
"What I hear them saying, underneath it all, is "Shut up. I'm doing okay right now, so I don't need change. Quit complaining or they'll punish us all."
Do I know you from elsewhere, or are you new to WINOW? Either way, welcome!!
Posted by Grace | February 26, 2005 6:52 PM
i am not saying it should be your job, but from the other POV why the fuck should they care what makes you uncomfortable? especially if it is seen as unreasonable? My point wasn't that it's fair that they treat women in a manner that you don't like, but that since most people have a higher tolerance for offensiveness that it isn't going to change until they see it as an actual problem. my point is the fact that something makes one person in their lives uncomfortable doesn't mean that they are going to stop doing it.
Maybe look at it through a metaphor: if I dated someone who was an extreme moral vegan I might try not to eat meat around them (and even that would be sort of personally out of the question), but since I think being morally opposed to meat is sort of ridiculous and extreme, I am never going to be committed to making a real change, or seeing my eating meat as offensive. Because most people find moral veganism extreme and overly sensitive, I will never fully commit to seeing it as a realistic position. While I can intellectually realize my eating meat bothers the person, I also see their position as silly, no matter how much I like them, so it's never going to stick.
Posted by triumphantly, jenny | February 27, 2005 2:24 AM
Grace: you don't know me. I'm just a lurker. Thanks for the welcome.
Broad, are you purposely being disingenious, or do you really think that your metaphor is in any way applicable to what's going on? Expecting women to have the same respect that men get isn't ridiculous and extreme, and eating meat isn't disrespectful to half the human race.
Here's a closer fitting analogy for you. It's rude to bump into people on the sidewalk, isn't it? I find that sort of behavior unacceptable. Maybe you live in a city where it happens so often that it no longer bothers you. Well, you can tell me all day long that you don't mind people bumping into you on the sidewalk, but that's not going to make me feel silly for thinking it's rude and unacceptable. And then you can try to blame me for not teaching those people better, but that doesn't make it my job.
You don't mind men using vagina synonyms as insults and believing themselves to be better than you? Good for you, broad. But don't tell me I'm silly because I'm tired of that shit and I don't feel like being these people's mommy.
Posted by Gwen | February 27, 2005 9:46 PM
It turns out that I agree with you, Grace . . .
Posted by Emma Goldman | February 28, 2005 3:25 PM
Wow. I used to think that my belief that Sweden was reasonably feminist was just an expression of silly nationalism, but the more I learn about life in the US, the more disgusted I become. Your coworkers behave like absolute first-class arseheads(I agree with the commenter who said that these are examples of OVERT sexism) and you are afraid that your comments will brand you as a manhater?!? By people positive to feminism?
Posted by Michael Pelzfuss | March 1, 2005 5:30 AM
DELETED AND REPOSTED FOR CLARITY REVISIONS!
I think you missed the point (or I didn't articulate it clearly enough). Obviously I don't think it is ridiculous that men and women should be treated equally. By pointing out things that are sexist that the majority of people think are not, no one is likely to change their offensive behavior. Until people think your complaint is reasonable AND it resonates with them, nothing will change and you can't expect it to.
Until a majority of people see it as a reasonable request as opposed to an overly sensitive one, it won't change. You have to get them to agree with the principle before it will actually change. I am not saying you are wrong, I am just saying that until I am convinced that calling men and women alike "bitch" or saying "you guys" as a catchall, etc. is sexist, I will not stop saying it, and neither will anyone else. Anything done for other people out of consideration and not actually because you really want to do it will fade with time.
Posted by triumphantly, jenny | March 1, 2005 12:15 PM
My comment about civility wasn't meant to treat sexism as trivial -- I was just surprised that remarks as blatant as the ones Grace posted were considered acceptable in any sort of professional context. I was also trying to broaden this into the context of a general lack of respect for other people, no matter the gender.
Posted by Ben Combee | March 1, 2005 6:54 PM
I agree, most of those sound like overt sexist to me. The only one I'll take you task for is the use of the word bitch. I don't think it has any sexist overtones. It doesn't derive from anything to do with women, and it is used to describe both men and women. If you are using it in a specific context, like "bitches and hos" to mean women generally, then thats a sexist use of the word. But if you say sdtop being a bitch, or he/she was being really bitchy, I don't see how that is different from using asshole instead.
As I said, the rest I agree with on, though I, like most of the rest of the posters, would see those as overt sexism.
My response to such things would generally to tell the person to fuck off.
Posted by wiley and elusive | March 2, 2005 5:54 PM
Great post! It's pissed me off for years that the ones who are offended are 'too sensitive' and have to change our expectations, and that the offenders don't have to change their behaviors. When I was in the process of moving to Sweden, I thought I'd be moving into an enlightened society that was free, or mostly so, from those types of discrimination. It still happens. It's still ingrained in the culture, that women have to do one thing because of the equipment they were born with.
And it's not only men that enforce it, I've seen: it's women, too, perhaps even more so than men. Women who disapprove of other women who choose to do things differently from the accepted norm, women who say that another woman shouldn't be hired because she's 30 and will probably just have a baby and quit soon anyway, and so on. And don't get me started on age discrimination, which is commonly accepted here. Anyway, great post, and I'll be back to read more!
Posted by Gale | March 3, 2005 6:50 AM
It's all part of the oppression that if anyone in a marginalized group expresses any kind of strong emotion about something that makes the dominants uncomfortable, that person is automatically "overreacting," "making a big fuss over nothing," or -- horrors! -- is a "hater." (Woman angry at sexism? She'd better not say anything, or she'll be called a "man-hater.") That honest anger and rage MUST be belittled and diminished (until we ourselves question our own reactions that would be considered normal if the dominant group expressed them). It's not the big act of sexism that tears you up like one big tiger -- it's the nonstop 1001 itty-bitty sexisms that eat you alive like a flock of hungry duckies.
Not every woman will be raped. But every woman will have to deal with men telling her she's "over-reacting" if she gets angry at *anything*. She'll have complete male strangers *order* her to smile (doesn't matter if she's not smiling because her child just died, dammit, "c'mon, smile honey!"). She'll be told from the pulpit and the Oval Office that men's medical needs are "more equal" than hers. She'll be praised as the backbone of the office by the same boss who just can't find it in the budget to give the (female) secretary a working computer even as he gives brand-new laptops to all the (male) contractors. If she dares express an opinion opposite to a nearby male, she may very well be accused of irrationality, hysteria, or PMS. She'll be dragged to 500 teen-girl-slasher films by the same boy who thinks "Thelma and Louise" is the worst depiction of gender-bashing ever (because ONE woman kills ONE rapist). Oh, but I must be "too sensitive."
Posted by Anonymous | April 19, 2005 6:13 PM